Jeffrey wrote:
> 
> I disagree, and I think you miss my point. I assume I may hold you
> personally responsible for all the people in the community who will blame
> me for all the rapes of the world because I wouldn't discourage anyone
> (male or female) from whistling at another.

That is not at all what I said.  We are responsble for the environment
we create.  Our social environment can be very hostile to women, at
times, and that makes it difficult for people speak their minds at work,
dance how they want to in a bar, post on the internet, etc. 
Essentially, women who live in fear of sexual assult (I don't, but many
justifiably do) have LESS FREEDOM than, oh say, you do.

I'm not saying people are personally guilty and should be prosecuted for
the environment they contribute to, but we as a group should be somehow
accountable if our "community standards" include casual sexual (or any
other kind of) harrassment.

> It's easy to pop in, purge
> yourself, and make a heroic speech isn't it? 

Yes, fuck you.  I have other things to do.

> I feel that I am responsible
> for actively discouraging behaviors I consider offensive, and I refuse to
> believe whistling leads to frustrated rape.

No-one said whistling causes rape!  Do you agree that they are opposite
ends of a scale of chauvinist behaiour (say from racial epithets to
lynching)?  Many people start out with a relatively benign behaviour
(whistling, probably meant as a compliment), but as they receive no
negative signals about it, will just continue to intensify (pushing
their sexual urges too far into the public, intruding on others) until
they are doing really unhealthy things like coming on to their employees
or a drunk assault or what-have-you.

> I am not denying the existance
> of sexual harrassment, I just have different opinions on what it is.

What's your definition?  I think it's unwanted sexual behavior forced
onto another person.

> I was
> bothered by the tone and content of the first post, so I responded. You
> misquoted me by the way.

I wasn't quoting you specifically, by the way, but comments like yours
that piss me off.  These comments about the tone really come back to
McKible's insightfull comment about the implications of describing an
angry and articulate woman as shrill.  Let's see how chill you are when
you can't walk the streets and never feel that your body is safe from
total violation.

> All I'm saying is that assuming one thing ALWAYS
> leads to another is a dangerous way to structure an environment.

Believing one thing NEVER leads to another is stupid and blinkered and
convenient.  It sometimes does, and the behavior should be stopped
before, not after, this happens.

> I find
> it very hard to believe you take responsibility for most of the behavior
> of females in our society. Do you?

Now here you really miss it.  I wasn't saying YOU are responsible for
the BOYS, and I'll take the perfect GIRLS (although I might not mind
that, actually, our behavior is often more defensible to me).  We are
ALL accountable for the community we live in.  If we don't feel
responsible for each other, we will end up living with bars on our doors
and shotguns under the bed as many folks do in our poorest communities
who have been ripped apart economically and socially.

I don't want that.  I want sit on my porch and say 'hi' to my neighbors
as they pass by (whoever they may be) and not have to worry about being
the target of a drive-by or a rape.  I hope that's not too much to ask.