At 02:16 PM 1/15/97 -0500, you wrote:
>
>Do you think that without pornography these fellas would have been perfect
>gentlemen? 
      
  no, obviously these men are jerks and not all men use porn this way--i am
just suggesting that pornography could be viewed as a symptom of a pervasive
attitude devaluing women and capable of being used as a tool. also, i was
trying to make a point with the lawyer at the strip club example that
sometimes it's a lot more subtle than that.
>>         
>These cases involve sickos who are purposely trying to torture a woman
>with pornography. Of course there is an adverse effect. Does this mean we
>should ban it?
       
         okay, to all of you, for the last time--I NEVER PROPOSED BANNING
PORNOGRAPHY!!!!!! i have simply expressed my personal views and provided
some real-world examples to substantiate the claims i have put forth. have
you actually read anything i've posted.
>
>I'm under the impression that Margaret is clear on the different factions
>in the movement, whereas your brother (the idiot) is not. If Margaret is
>doing something in the same way as an idiot, would this not be a
>comparison? It's always context.

        why does margaret automatically have more credibility than i do?
maybe because you agree with her? 

>I thought your comment to Margaret concerning sexual advances was mean, so
>I said so. I will.
>
>       >speaking of mean, i'll get to that later . . .      

>Consider that there may not be [a connection between whistles and sexual
assualt]. You cannot assume it will always turn out
>that way. You consider everyone guilty based on the few.

        okay, let's talk about making huge leaps in the course of the
debate.  i have never said that all whistlers come after the women at whom
they whistle.  that happened one time out of a hundred that i've been
whistled at.  i was simply proposing that it's not so far-fetched to make a
connection and that women who feel threatened by strangers' whistling,
catcalls, etc. have valid reasons for that fear.


>I think this is terrible. I do. But if I get thrown in jail for whistling
>at a female because some asshole tried to assault you, it would be a
>terrible injustice. We try to punish the guilty, but the law is designed
>to do just that, punish the guilty. You cannot remove every chance of an
>attack without removing the rights of all people. 
        
        here's another huge leap.  when did i even suggest that there be a
criminal cause of action for whistling?  i can't even imagine prosecuting
that. oh, so you're one of the whistlers?  here i go being mean--what the
hell do you hope to accomplish when you whistle at women?  that they're
gonna feel so grateful that you find them sexy that they'll jump in the car
with you?  i'm honestly just curious--my women friends and i have often
wondered this, so maybe you can give us your perspective.       
>
>Well now would could discuss the difference between whistling and actual
>physical contact. I think there's a major difference there.

        i think if you had read my rebuttal you would have noticed that i
was just suggesting a continuum, clearly there's a difference between the two.
>
>I never meant to give the impression I was mocking the issue. If I was
>(and I'm not so sure about it) mocking anything, it was you.

        okay, now who's just being mean? it's a time-honored, extremely
rational tool of debate to simply mock your adversary.
>
>I think most of the people responding are far from defensive or
>overreacting. I think they simply have problems with the way you structure
>your arguements. 
>
        okay, what about your arguments? Clearly we disagree, and we both
have problems listening to each other.  'nuff said--i'm spending way too
much time on this and i have to get back to my ball-busting.  oh the life of
the strident feminist. . .

        thanks to everyone who participated in the debate, i ended up
learning a lot about this issue its process. i'm sorry to end my side for
now--it's just been consuming all of my free time and i've got to get back
to my life. for those of you who have directed posts to me on this issue and
haven't received a reply, most of your questions can be answered by looking
back over my arguments.

D